towing and transfer boxes

[twiss]

haha if you're towing an SJ with diesel (NA) ford escort van it makes a hell of a difference

[felstmiester]

Lol if your towing with all four wheels on the ground then can't see it being any different to driving like said t box 2 high and gearbox in neutral.

All this towing is a big grey area. I was under the understanding that an A frame is totally ellegal now because not only the fact it's not braked but because the front wheels are fixed and on the ground.

I've got what they call an amplus wich is like a towing dolly but is braked, I've got a two wheeled one and a four witch can carry more weight but I've heard there can be grey areas with these. Yet the AA use dollys unbraked and strait bars all the time.

[Jordi]

Its illegal as the SJ weighs over 750kg and isn't braked.

The fact all four wheels are on the floor is irrelevant (spelling) just like towing a "A" framed trailer.

I'm not sure about dollys. I see lots of campers with small cars on a frames and dollys running about. It is possible to rig up overrun brakes but its a bit of a arse on.

[Anton]

Yet the AA use dollys unbraked and strait bars all the time.

I *think* the reason the AA/RAC get away with unbraked towing dollies is because there's a caveat to the law which says you can flat-tow a vehicle if it's in a dangerous position, but only as far as nessesary to get it out of harms way, or to the nearest garage.

Don't take that as gospel, it's what I vuagely remember a guy who runs a recovery firm told me on the Jago owners club forums (which I no longer have access to, having not paid me fees... So I can't check to see if I'm talking out of my backside).

As for the strait bars, I remember when the clutch went on an old Yaris I was driving, the AA guy towed me home using one. I had to sit in the Yaris and press the brake whenever I saw his brake lights come on, and steer the vehicle.

Wasn't difficult, but since I was "driving" the towed vehicle, I don't think the problems with braked weights etc comes into play.

Its illegal as the SJ weighs over 750kg and isn't braked.

The fact all four wheels are on the floor is irrelevant (spelling) just like towing a "A" framed trailer.

I'm not sure about dollys. I see lots of campers with small cars on a frames and dollys running about. It is possible to rig up overrun brakes but its a bit of a arse on.

2 things: 1) You spelt irrelevant correctly, and 2) I've seen companies advertising conversions for small cars that turn them into braked trailers. I assume they run some kind of cable from the brake pedal through the front grill and to the A-frame's braking whatsit (the bit that compresses to operate the brakes on a trailer).

Again, no idea if that's actually how they do it, but it seems viable... I'm sure the SCUK lads could devise something similar that actually works.

[Highlander]

All this towing is a big grey area

There is no "grey area" about towing

The internet is full of people who quite happily pass on highly misleading info that someone's mate's uncle who used to know someone that towed a trailer, told them down the pub!

I fully researched this subject myself, because every time it came up on an internet forum everyone gives you a different answer!

I bought an unbraked A-frame years ago, it came covered in warnings about when and when not it could be used.

I ignored that and used it to take my SJ to offroad sites for many years before trying to disprove the manufacturers warning!

I made an appointment and visited my local traffic police.

I also spoke to VOSA, the DVLA, Department of Transport, the Caravan Club

Read my previous post on this thread.

I have an A-frame and have used it many, many times (and sometimes still do)

For an A-frame to be used legally the towed car has to be FULLY road legal (MOT/tax/insurance/legal tyres etc etc)

It MUST have proper trailer lighting (a lighting board etc)

It MUST have a braking system (on ALL wheels) that works whilst it is being towed.

Yes you can use them unbraked in a recovery situation but ONLY to recover a broken down car to the nearest place of safety.

plus you also need the correct towing license to use one.

the legalities of it are black and white, if its not road legal, not braked, not broken down its illegal

Recovery services have special dispensation to use A-Frames and dollies in a recovery situation.

Straight bars/tow ropes etc are perfectly legal (as long as the towed car is road legal) and it has a driver!

So again...

If you are recovering a broken down, road legal vehicle to the nearest place of safety then YES you can use an A-frame/2 wheel dolly.

If you are transporting your off road SJ that hasn't been on the road for ten years to and from a pay and play site then you are doing so illegally.

Same with scrap cars, I have seen a lot of b*****ks typed about being able to tow a scrap car to a scrapyard using an A-frame/straight bar etc because its "broken down"

Again, its NOT road legal so you shouldn't do it.

[Highlander]

I've seen companies advertising conversions for small cars that turn them into braked trailers. I assume they run some kind of cable from the brake pedal through the front grill and to the A-frame's braking whatsit (the bit that compresses to operate the brakes on a trailer).

Again, no idea if that's actually how they do it, but it seems viable... I'm sure the SCUK lads could devise something similar that actually works.

Yes it can be done by either vacuum assisted or cable systems.



BUT

the towed car still has to be road legal.

[Anton]

Thanks, Highlander - that's pretty much what I thought. I did research it a while ago, but some bits were hazy.

Someone I know (who looks *awfully* like me, drives a *very* similar Yaris D4-D to me, and has a grey tintop 413, just like me, but isn't me, if any law enforcement officers are reading this) was told that towing a car using an A-frame was legal, so (without checking) this person followed that advice and towed a *NON ROAD LEGAL* SJ to pay and play sites every few weeks.

It was only when I researched towing law that I realised that *ahem* this person had been breaking the law!!!

So the A-Frame went into exile, and the plan to get the SJ road legal came about.

Listening to "My mate, who knows abaart this stuff" could get a person done for driving without insurance, towing an illegal load, and whatever else the magistrate can think up. You could loose your licence - driving without insurance (towing an illegal load invalidates your insurance) is 6 points.

Driving without the proper extended mirrors is 3 points. How many people who tow with an A-Frame stop to think about wing mirrors? You may or may not get done for this.

Also you're not supposed to exceed 60mph when towing on a dual carriageway or motorway (50 on a single carriageway). So best case, you end up with 6 points. Worst case, you're done for the mirrors, speeding and insurance, and you've lost your licence - even if it's clean.

The department for transport's official guidance on A-Frames.

Final point - I personally agree with both sides of this being a "grey area" - it isn't a grey area because the law is actually laid down quite clearly and is on the DVLA website, the DfT website, VOSA's website AND on the governments official website.

On the other hand, it IS grey because it's still confusing as hell for the average person. Moral: If you're not sure, DON'T DO IT.

[Jordi]

Bet your pleased you never did that.

[twiss]

Now one thing to look into is... if you tow someone who isn't legal does that put you in the wrong?
I'd imagine on a tow rope no, but on a A frame yes...
Thats got to be a grey area, as technically it makes them your trailer, but also they shouldn't be on the road in the first place...

[Anton]

Bet your pleased you never did that.

Yes, I'd feel like a right idiot if I had...

Now one thing to look into is... if you tow someone who isn't legal does that put you in the wrong?
I'd imagine on a tow rope no, but on a A frame yes...
Thats got to be a grey area, as technically it makes them your trailer, but also they shouldn't be on the road in the first place...

Ooooh, that's a good point!

First up, I'd say that the A-Frame scenario - yes, you'd be liable, because you've legally turned the towed car into an unbraked trailer according to the DfT guidelines.

For towing on a rope, I initially thought that because they're behind the wheel, you'd be ok - but then I thought, if you pull away with a passenger that isn't buckled up with a seatbelt YOU are liable, not the passenger. So on the other hand, the law seems to come down against the driver in these circumstances.

That is to say, the law seems to think that the driver should be responsible for the safe operation of everything under his control, which if you think about it, is only fair on other road users. Since you're in control of the towed vehicle (to a greater rather than lesser degree) then I'd say don't tow a car unless you know it's fully road legal, unless lives are in *real* danger.

And even then, I'd say it was best to just tug the vehicle *just* far enough to get it to a safe place, then stop and call for a beavertail.

Better to be safe than licenceless...